New Dehli 1948
New Delhi India 2nd Public Talk 28th November, 1948
To continue what we were talking about last Sunday, it seems to me
that it is important to understand that conflict of any kind does not
produce creative thinking. Until we understand conflict and the nature
of conflict, and what it is that one is in conflict with, merely to
struggle with a problem, or with a particular background or environment,
is utterly useless. Just as all wars create deterioration and
inevitably produce further wars, further misery, so to struggle with
conflict leads to further confusion. So, conflict within oneself,
projected outwardly, creates confusion in the world. It is there- fore
necessary, is it not?, to understand conflict and to see that conflict
of any kind is not productive of creative thinking, of sane human
beings. And yet all our life is spent in struggle, and we think that
struggle is a necessary part of existence. There is conflict within
oneself and with the environment, environment being society, which in
turn is our relationship with people, with things, and with ideas. This
struggle is considered as inevitable, and we think that struggle is
essential for the process of existence. Now, is that so? Is there any
way of living which excludes struggle, in which there is a possibility
of understanding without the usual conflict? I do not know whether you
have noticed that the more you struggle with a psychological problem,
the more confused and entangled you get; and that it is only when there
is cessation of struggle, of all thought process, that understanding
comes. So, we will have to enquire if conflict is essential, and if
conflict is productive.
Now, we are talking about conflict in ourselves and with the
environment. The environment is what one is in oneself. You and the
environment are not two different processes; you are the environment,
and the environment is you - which is an obvious fact. You are born into
a particular group of people, whether in India, America Russia or
England, and that very environment with its influences of climate,
tradition, social and religious custom, creates you - and you are that
environment. To find out if there is something more than merely the
result of environment, you have to be free of the environment, free of
its conditioning. That is obvious, is it not? If you look carefully into
yourself, you will see that, being born in this country, you are
climatically, socially, religiously and economically its product or
result. That is, you are conditioned; and to find out if there is
something more, something greater than the mere result of a condition,
you have to be free of that condition. Being conditioned, merely to
enquire if there is something more, something greater than the mere
product of environment, has no meaning. Obviously, one must be free of
the condition, of the environment, and then only can we find out if
there is something more. To assert that there is or is not something
more, is surely a wrong way of thinking. One has to discover, and to
discover, one has to experiment.
So, to understand this environment and be free of it in ourselves,
not only is it necessary to know all the hidden, stored up influences in
the unconscious, but to know what we are in conflict with. As we have
seen, each one of us is the result of environment, and we are not
separate from environment. So, what is it that we are in conflict with?
What is it that responds to environment? What is the thing we call
struggle? We are in constant battle - but with what? We are struggling
with the environment; and yet, since we are part of the environment, our
struggle is only a process separating us from the environment.
Therefore, there is no understanding of the environment, but merely a
conflict. That is, to put it differently, if there is understanding of
the environment without struggle, there is no self-consciousness. After
all, you are self-conscious only when there is conflict. If there is no
conflict, you are not conscious of yourself in action. You are conscious
of yourself in action only when there is a conclusion, when there is
frustration, when you want to do something but are prevented. When you
want to achieve something and are blocked, there is frustration, and
then only there is awareness of conflict or self-consciousness.
Now, what is it that we are struggling with? With our problems, are
we not? What are the problems? The problems arise only in relation-
ship, they do not exist independently of relationship. So, as long as I
do not understand myself in relation to environment, which is my
relationship with things, with property, with ideas, and with human
being, whether my wife, my neighbour, or my particular group - as long
as I do not understand my relationship with environment, there must be
conflict. Environment is relationship, which is action with regard to
things, people, and ideas. As long as I do not understand relationship,
there must be conflict, and this conflict separates me as an entity
different from the environment. I do not know if this is a little too
abstract, and in any case we will discuss it further on Tuesdays,
Thursdays and Saturdays. But I think it is important to understand this
point; because, if we can understand the significance of conflict,
perhaps we shall approach the problem differently.
So, we do not understand environment, environment being relationship
in action; and relationship exists only between yourself and things,
people, and ideas. Since we do not understand environment, there is
conflict, that is, self-consciousness, and therefore there is a process
of separation between you and the environment. It is this conflict that
creates separation; the individual as the `I' is born out of the
conflict, and then the `I' wants to achieve, positively or negatively.
So, conflict inevitably creates a separative process, creates the
individual as apart from the group, from the community, and so on. This
separative process of the `I' only emphasizes and strengthens the
conflict which we see in daily life.
Now, is it possible to live without conflict? Because, conflict
invariably increases the separative process, and therefore there is no
way out of it. There is a way out only when conflict ceases. Is it
possible to live without conflict? To find out if it is possible to live
without conflict, we must understand what we mean by living. What do we
mean by living? Surely, we mean the process of relationship, because
there is no living in isolation. Nothing can live in isolation. By
living we mean, do we not?, the extensive process of relationship,
relationship in action. Now, is it possible to understand relationship,
and not create out of relationship a conflict? Is it possible for
relationship to be without conflict? please see the importance of this,
that as long as there is conflict, there is no creative thinking and
living. Conflict only accentuates separation and further strengthens the
conflict. Is it possible to live, to be in relationship, without
conflict? I say it is possible only if you understand relationship and
do not resist it. That is, I have to understand my psychological
relationship with things, with people, and with ideas. Is it possible to
understand that conflict, and is conflict necessary for understanding?
That is, do I have to struggle with the problem to understand the
problem? Or is there a different approach?
I say there is a different approach to the problem of conflict, with
which you can experiment for yourself, and that is to understand the
significance of conflict. That is, when I struggle with a problem, a
human problem or even an abstract problem of mathematics or physics, the
mind is kept in agitation, it is worried. Surely an agitated, worried
mind is incapable of understanding. Understanding comes when the mind is
non-violent, not when it is in battle with a problem. We have problems
with regard to property, with regard to people, and with regard to
ideas, and shall deal with these on the following Sundays; but the first
thing to realize, it seems to me, is that no form of conflict produces
right understanding. It is only when I understand a problem that it
ceases, and to understand a problem I must not only think about it, but
be capable of leaving it alone. I do not know whether you have noticed
that when you have a problem you worry over it like a dog over a bone.
You think about it all day long, and at the end of the day you are
exhausted and you put it aside, you sleep on it; and then suddenly you
find the answer. This happens to most people. Surely, it is very simple.
The conscious mind, worrying over the problem, is not capable of
looking at it completely without seeking an answer. The conscious mind
wants an answer to that problem; therefore, it is not concerned with the
problem, but with the answer. The conscious mind not only wants an
answer, but it does not want to go into the whole problem itself.
Therefore, the conscious mind is avoiding the problem, and looking for
an answer. But the answer is in the problem, not away from it. So, there
must be the investigation of the problem completely, without seeking an
answer, so that the mind can be quiet, still. I will presently take
this up with regard to our relationship with people, with things, and
with ideas, and see if we cannot be free of our problems immediately
without going through the conflict which only confuses the problem.
Now I am going to answer the questions given to me. The repetition of
truth prevents the understanding of truth, which means that repetition
of truth is a hindrance. Truth cannot be repeated. You can read a book
about truth, but mere repetition of a statement from the book is not
truth. The word `truth' is not truth, the word is not the thing. To find
that which is truth is to experience directly, independently of the
word. So, in considering these questions, please let us bear in mind
that we are undertaking a journey together to discover things together;
therefore, there is no danger of the relationship of pupil and teacher.
You are not here as the spectator to watch me play; we are both playing,
therefore neither of us is exploiting the other.
Question: What is meditation, and how to do it?
Krishnamurti: As it is an enormous and very complex problem, let us
go very carefully into the whole question. First of all, let us approach
it negatively; because, to think positively about something we do not
know is to continue the problem, and we do not know what meditation is.
We have been told the way we should meditate, how we should concentrate,
what we should do and not do, and all that; but that cannot be
meditation. So, we must approach the problem of meditation negatively to
find out what it is. To approach it positively and say this or that is
meditation, is obviously repetition, because you have been told what
meditation is and you are merely repeating what you have been told.
Therefore it is not meditation, but mere repetition. I do not know if
you follow what I am talking about. Perhaps it will be clearer as we go
along. If we can see what meditation is not, then there ii a possibility
of finding out what meditation is. Surely, that is the way of
investigation and rational approach. So, let us find out.
Now, concentration is not meditation. We shall see what that means.
Concentration implies exclusiveness, I hope you are interested in all
this, because to discuss with somebody who is not interested is rather a
trial for me as well as for you who are not interested. I shall tell
you why you should be interested in this question: because it opens up
an enormous field in human consciousness. Without understanding that
consciousness, you have no basis for action. To me, to join parties,
repeat slogans, and so on, has no meaning. In understanding this problem
of meditation, I am understanding the whole problem of living.
Meditation is not apart from living, as I shall show presently.
I said that concentration is not meditation. What do we mean by
concentration? I do not know if. you have ever tried to concentrate.
When you try to concentrate, what are you doing? You are choosing one
interest among a great many, and trying to focus your attention on that
particular interest. It is not an interest really, but you think you
ought to be interested in it. That is, you think you ought to meditate
about higher things and that is one interest among a great many; so, you
choose to concentrate on it and exclude all other interests. That is
what actually takes place when you concentrate. Therefore, such
concentration is an exclusive process. Now, what happens when you are
trying to concentrate on a picture, an image or an idea? What is
happening? Other thoughts come in, and you try to brush them aside; and
the more you brush them aside, the more they come in. So, you spend your
time in resisting, and in trying to develop a particular idea. This
process is called concentration, the effort to fix your mind on one
interest which you have chosen and exclude all other interests. That is
what we mean by concentration.
Now, to understand something you must give your full attention to it,
full attention being attention that has no obstruction. You must give
your whole being, and then you understand something. But what happens
when you try to concentrate and at the same time resist? You are trying
to follow along a certain track, but your mind is continually going off
in another direction, and you are not giving your full attention. You
are giving only partial attention, and therefore there is no
understanding. Therefore, concentration does not help towards
understanding, and it is very important to understand this point. Where
there is exclusiveness of attention, there must be distraction. If I try
to force my attention to focus on one thing, then the mind is resisting
something else. That resistance is distraction. Therefore, where there
is conflict between attention and distraction, there is no concentration
at all. It is a battle, and that battle goes on until the mind, weary
of the struggle, settles upon the chosen interest. Surely, to settle
upon the chosen interest is not meditation. It is merely craving, the
resistance and exclusiveness of choice. Such a mind is a dull mind. Such
a mind is insensitive, it is incapable of response, because it has
spent itself in resisting, excluding, wasted its energy in the conflict
between distraction and attention. It has lost its elasticity, the power
to reveal glory; therefore it is a decadent mind and is incapable of
quickness and pliability. So, meditation is not concentration.
Now, meditation is not prayer. Let us examine what we are doing when
we pray. What actually takes place, psychologically, when we pray? What
do we mean by prayer? The repetition of certain phrases, supplication
and petition. When I pray, I petition a higher entity, a higher
intelligence, to clear up my vision, to free me from a difficulty, to
help me to understand a problem, or to grant me comfort or happiness.
So, prayer generally implies supplication or petition either to be
helped out of one's difficulty, or to receive a response - which I shall
explain presently. Now, I do not know if you have prayed. Probably some
have. What happens when you pray? Don't deny it by saying it is
nonsense, because millions pray, and they must receive a response,
otherwise they would not do it. Whether or not that response is truth,
we are going to find out. Now, what happens when you pray? By repeating
certain phrases or words, by repeating certain charms, the mind becomes
quiet. So, part of the function of prayer is to drug the mind into
quietness, because when the mind is quiet, it is able to receive. That
is, by sitting down or kneeling, by clasping one's hands and repeating
certain phrases, the mind naturally subsides; and in that quiet state,
it is capable of receiving. Now, what does it receive? It receives the
answer it is seeking; and then I say that God has spoken to me, that my
prayers have been answered and I have found a way out of my
difficulties. Therefore I say that in prayer I find reality. But what
has actually happened? The superficial conscious mind, which has been
agitated, becomes quiet; and in that quiet state it is capable of
receiving the intimations of the hidden, of the unconscious mind, and
those intimations are the things which I want. Can these answers be from
God or reality? Surely, it is a most extraordinary idea we have, that
God is so awfully interested in us that when we have by our greed, envy
and violence created a mess in the world, we have only to pray and he
will answer. That is the way a Hitler prays, the Catholics pray, the
Allies pray - and this country also prays to God. Where is the
difference? We all want an answer that will be gratifying; and since
prayer is a means of gratification, the answer will be gratifying.
Whether you call it the inner voice, or the voice of reality, it is
always gratifying. Therefore, prayer is a means of quietening the mind
in order to find or receive gratification. As long as the mind is
seeking gratification, it is not in search of reality. As long as the
mind is seeking comfort, refuge, it is not capable of receiving the
unknown; it is capable of receiving only that which is known, which is
its own self-projection. That is why prayer is gratifying and why it
finds a gratifying answer.
So, concentration is not meditation, and prayer is not meditation.
Nor is devotion meditation, obviously. What are you devoted to? When you
say, 'I am of a devotional nature, I am devoted to something', what do
you mean by devotion? You are devoted to something which in return
gratifies you; you are not devoted to something which creates trouble.
You are devoted to something that pleases you, that brings satisfaction,
a sense of security, of well being, that makes you sentimental; and
that thing which you are devoted to is a projection of yourself. What
you are devoted to gives you subtle satisfaction, positively or
negatively, and therefore your devotion is not meditation.
Then what is meditation? If concentration, prayer, and devotion are
not meditation, then what is meditation? Obviously, meditation begins
with the understanding of oneself. To understand yourself is to be aware
of yourself in action, which is to see what is actually taking place
when you concentrate, when you pray, when you are devoted. It is a
process in which you are discovering yourself. You can discover yourself
only in relationship, which is action. After all, if you see what is
happening when you concentrate, then you are discovering the ways of
your own thinking; when you look into concentration, you begin to
discover yourself in operation, and therefore through concentration you
are beginning to understand yourself. Similarly, you begin to see
yourself in operation when you are praying, or when you are feeling
devotion. As you discover all the implications of prayer and devotion,
you begin to understand yourself. So, when you trace the process of
thought with regard to concentration, with regard to prayer, with regard
to devotion, you are discovering yourself in relation to those things;
and all this is a process of meditation.
So, meditation is the beginning of self-knowledge - knowledge of
oneself as one is, and not as one should be. The desire to be something
else is a barrier to seeing yourself as you are. Meditation is
awareness, without condemnation, of every thought, every feeling, every
word. The moment you condemn, you put into motion another thought
process, and self-discovery ceases. After all, as I said, meditation is a
process of self-discovery, and that self-discovery is without an end.
Therefore, meditation is an eternal, timeless process. To understand
that which is timeless, which is unknown, which is real, which cannot be
put into words - to realize that, the thought process must be
completely understood; and it can be understood, not in abstraction, not
in isolation, but only in relationship. There is no such thing as
isolation. A man who sits in an enclosed room, or withdraws to a jungle
or a mountain, is still related, he cannot escape relationship. And it
is only through relationship that I am capable of knowing myself, and
therefore knowing how to meditate.
Meditation, then, is the beginning of understanding, meditation is
the beginning of self-knowledge. Without meditation, there is no
self-knowledge; without self-knowledge, there is no meditation. So, you
must begin to know what you are. You cannot go far without beginning
near, without understanding your daily process of thought, feeling and
action. In other words, thought must understand its own working; and
when you see yourself in operation, you will observe that thought moves
from the known to the known. You cannot think about the unknown. That
which you know is not real, because what you know is only in time. To be
free from the net of time is the important concern, not to think about
the unknown; because you cannot think about the unknown. The answers to
your prayers are of the known. To receive the unknown, the mind itself
must become the unknown. The mind is the result of the thought process,
the result of time, and this thought process must come to an end. The
mind cannot think of that which is eternal, timeless; therefore the mind
must be free of time, the time process of the mind must be dissolved.
Only when the mind is completely free from yesterday, and is therefore
not using the present as a means to the future, is it capable of
receiving the eternal. That which is known has no relationship with the
unknown. Therefore you cannot pray to the unknown, you cannot
concentrate on the unknown, you cannot be devoted to the unknown. All
that has no meaning. What has meaning, is to find out how the mind
operates, it is to see yourself in action. Therefore, our concern in
meditation is to know oneself, not only superficially, but the whole
content of the inner, hidden consciousness. Without knowing all that and
being free of its conditioning, you cannot possibly go beyond the
mind's limits. That is why the thought process must cease, and for this
cessation there must be knowledge of oneself. Therefore meditation is
the beginning of wisdom, which is the understanding of one's own mind
and heart.
This is a matter of life and death; because, if you understand what I
have been saying, it will produce a revolution in your life, a
devastating experience. But if it is merely verbal, a casual amusement
instead of going to the cinema, then you can go on merely listening
without disturbance. But if you know how to listen, you will be
tremendously moved, and therefore a revolution is possible. So, Sir,
please do not merely listen to the words, for words have very little
meaning. But most of us are fed on words without any substance, we
cannot think without words; and to think without words is negative
thinking, which is the highest form of thinking. That is not possible
when words are important, when the word is the end. Take the word God.
When the word God is used you get very excited, you get psychologically
thrilled, which means that the word is important, and not the thing the
word represents. So, you are caught in the net of words. The man who is
seeking the real does not confuse the word, the language, with that
which it represents.
I hope you don't mind if I answer another question.
Question: Does not interest in a thing, a person, or an idea, bring
about an effortless but none-the-less exclusive concentration on the
object of interest?
Krishnamurti: I have not seen the question before, so I am going to
think it out with you. The questioner wants to know, if I interpret him
rightly, when one is interested in something, is there not
effortlessness and at the same time exclusive attention? That is, when I
am interested in understanding a problem and pay attention to it, is
that attention not exclusive? The second point is, if one has interest,
is there not effortlessness?
Now, what do we mean by interest? Can we honestly say that we are
interested in only one thing? Obviously, that would not be a true
statement. We are interested in many things. Our attention is focussed
sometimes on one thing, sometimes on another. Whenever a particular
interest attracts our attention it creates a disturbance, and then we
pay attention. That is what actually takes place. That is, I have many
interests, I am an entity of many masks. From among these entities with
many interests, I choose one, thinking that it will help me. What
happens when I do so? When I am concentrating my attention, I am really
excluding other interests. Surely, when I focus my attention on one
interest, my attention is exclusive; therefore, though I am interested
in other things, I try to shut them out. That is, I have many interests,
and I choose one interest and try to fix my attention on it; and when I
do that, I create resistance, which means a state of struggle, of pain.
There is effortlessness only when there is an understanding of all the
interests, and not the exclusive choice of one interest; because, after
all, you are not made up of one interest. You are the total of many
variable and multiple interests, and these are being modified all the
time; and to choose one interest and focus your mind upon it is to make
the mind narrow, petty and exclusive. Such a mind cannot understand.
Whereas, a mind that sees the significance of each interest as it arises
from moment to moment is capable of extensive awareness, extensive
feeling. Look at what is happening in the hall right now. You are paying
attention to what I am saying. You are not exclusive, are you? You are
listening to the truth of what is, which is an obvious fact, so your
awareness is extensive and not limited. You are just allowing yourself
to see and enjoy. There is no effort, but your attention is fully
focussed without any resistance or exclusion. It is an extraordinary
thing if you go into it. We are extensive, and yet we can pay attention
to the particular. Concentration on the particular destroys extensive
awareness, whereas if you are capable of being extensively aware, then
you can give attention to the particular without resistance. I do not
know if you see the beauty of it. Sir, that is love, isn't it? Love is
extensive, therefore you can give love to the particular. But most of us
have not this extensive love, and therefore we go to the particular,
and the particular destroys us.
So, there is attention which is effortless, which alone brings about
understanding, when the multiple and variable interests are taken
together and understood. But when the attention is focussed on one
interest to the exclusion of other in- terests, such attention is
exclusive and destructive, it makes the mind narrow and is therefore a
deteriorating factor. The narrow mind may produce immediate results, but
it cannot understand extensively; but when the mind is extensive, it
can include the particular also. This elasticity, pliability, swiftness
of the mind, cannot come about if there is resistance; therefore, one
has to be aware of and understand the many interests, and not resist
them. As each interest comes up, look at it; don't condemn or justify
it, but go into it, absorb it fully and completely. It does not matter
whether it is a sexual interest, the desire to be somebody, or any other
interest. Go into each interest and feel its implications, think it
out; and then you will find that the mind is capable of being
extensively aware of every interest, seeing the implications of it
immediately without going into it step by step. Surely, such a mind is
essential for understanding the real, because the real, that which is
true, is not exclusive. The mind is exclusive because we have trained it
to deal only with the particular, forced it to focus on one interest
and exclude other interests. Therefore, it is incapable of receiving
that which is limitless. Though you may read about the limitless, and
repeat what you read, by doing so you are merely hypnotizing yourself.
Whereas, if you can look at each interest without condemnation or
justification, without identifying yourself, if you can be aware of its
whole content, then you will see that the mind, being free, is both
swift and very slow. It is like a high-powered and perfectly balanced
engine - though it can run at great speed, it can go very slowly also.
It is only then that the mind is capable of receiving the intimations of
the real. Whereas, a mind that is exclusive, limited, conditioned, can
never understand that which is eternal. To understand the eternal is to
understand oneself. When there are multiple interests, we have to
understand each interest as it arises, and only then can there be that
freedom in which the real is discovered.
November 28, 1948
